Diagrams of HGV blind spots (from Nozzer) - these could save your life
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    From Nozzer

    "Most of this is fairly self-explanatory. Hopefully it's helpful. Sorry if it sounds like a lecture-I realise some will already know most of this.
    The darker the shade of green the harder it is for the driver to see you-ASSUMING HE'S LOOKING IN THE CORRECT MIRROR to see you.
    Red areas are completely blind to the driver.Note the blind areas directly in front and to the right of the cab. They are big enough to lose someone pushing a cycle flat against the truck.


    Pic 1) and pic 2) Truck turning left/on a left hand bend.
    Rear of the trailer will be moving closer to the kerb and further to the left than the cab.
    The cab will be on the white line or even crossing into the other carriageway depending on how sharp the turn is and how wide the road is.
    Driver is HIGHLY unlikely to be looking in his right hand mirror unless to check if the corner of the trailer is in the right hand lane-and all he'll see in it is the headboard of the trailer if he is.
    Predominantly he'll be looking in the left mirror/ahead.

    Pic 3) Truck going in a straight line.
    This is also the same visiblity as a rigid or non-articulated vehicle. Assume the driver is using his mirrors only in the direction of travel in a rigid vehicle.
    If the truck is stationary or it's safe to do so-(ie assuming no oncoming traffic there needs to be no bends in the road coming up and the truck isn't indicating) then this is the safest time to overtake.
    DO NOT UNDERTAKE while it's moving-and if you MUST undertake then only do so if you KNOW the truck isn't going to move before you're past.
    DO NOT pull up in the nearside red zone by the cab.The kerbside mirror shows very little. If the driver is going to miss you,unless you're directly behind the trailer this is where he'll miss you while the truck is stationary.
    We'd far rather you pulled up directly in front of us and we could see you.

    Pic 4) and pic 5) Truck turning right/on a right hand bend.
    Rear of the trailer will be on the white line or even crossing into the other carriageway depending on how sharp the turn is and how wide the road is.
    BEWARE the back end of the trailer-if this is a very sharp bend the rear of the trailer will be moving to the left as it pivots round the axles. This is a SERIOUS crush hazard and the driver CANNOT SEE IT at all and is unlikely to know the trailer has hit someone. I once ripped the front bumper and valence from a Discovery that tried to push through and I didn't feel it.
    Driver will be splitting attention between right mirror(back of trailer),left mirror(Is the headboard going to intrude on the path?) and ahead.

    If an articulated lorry isn't stopped in a straight line DON'T undertake. Your chances of being seen are slim if bent left and nil if bent right and you're likely to get crushed as either the cab or trailer will be coming very close to the kerb.
    For the same reason don't cycle up behind one in the red zone at speed then pass-the driver may already have comitted to a manoevre because his mirrors look clear."
  • Just to add to what I've said above:-
    If you see an HGV stop and put his hazards on directly after a turning/side road make CERTAIN he can see you. He's likely to start reversing into the side road as soon as he thinks he's clear behind. Many HGV trailers DON'T have reversing lights so don't rely on seeing them and hearing a beeper coming from 45' away on the cab is a bit of a tall order.

    The triangular red zone on the right of the cab that appears to be out in the middle of nowhere isn't actually a blind spot as such-but is an area that may well be obscured to the driver by the window pillar and isn't actually directly visible while driving. If the vehicle has a right-hand lower wide angle mirror then this won't be a blind spot.

    BUT...

    Be very aware that the wide angle mirrors are extremely difficult to see a cyclist in,given the amount of time we can dedicate to them whilst moving.That goes for both sides.We've still got to look in the direction we're travelling in.


    And an aside-in defence of us...

    We're more likely to be looking in our mirrors and to have seen you than the 50 car drivers you just passed.




    Incidentally, I used to ride motorbikes through London regularly. I still ride regularly and have a fair idea of what to avoid. Even with more BHP/tonne than a Ferrari under me and being twice the size of a cyclist passing lorries is an unpleasant experience. I think you guys are f*cking crazy and as such should be thoroughly encouraged (take it as a compliment-it's meant as one).
  • thanks so much for this nozzer. it's really informative, although i have to confess feeling a little disorientated by your pictures at first, and wondering why you'd given some abstract, cubist-type mind-bending image set! :rolling:

    But truely, thanks. :smile:

    your comment from pic 3: "DO NOT pull up in the nearside red zone by the cab.The kerbside mirror shows very little." it angers me so much to read that in the sense that, as cyclists, that is exactly what we are encouraged to do. i don't, because i've learnt from experience not to, but the fact remains that i am encouraged to put my life in danger by the government and their crappy cycle lanes / green boxes at junctions.

    whilst most of that was common sense, i have to confess that the very dark green you have marked was a surprise to me. i can't imagine myself ever being in that spot, but i actually would have thought you'd have seen me there.

    so thanks, a lot.
  • No prob. The very dark green area is covered by the wide angle mirror which, while it does show a fair bit, isn't that easy to spot things in as things have to be quite large to see til they are close up. The back of the trailer looks 400 yards away in it so you can imagine how (in)visible a cyclist is.
  • Oh, and you're so right about the gov. and their bloody cycle lanes. The ones on the road might as well be dubbed 'Execution Zones'. Does anyone remember the public information film from the '70s about how much room a car needs to give a cyclist when passing? The gov. certainly don't.
  • i do remember those ads! and, heh, i've another one - does anyone remember the phrase "mirror, signal, manouver" from their driving test? most drivers in london certainly don't.
  • Noz, I wasn't having a pop. I am very grateful for these sketches. But if I publish them and don't mention that cyclists have been killed when they would have been visible had the driver looked, then I feel I would not be supplying all the information.

    I watched a driver preparing testify in court that he had looked in the mirrors, then change his plea when police evidence showed that if he had, he would have seen the cyclist that he then killed. This is the 'blind-spot' defence.

    So I am trying not to tar all, or even most, HGV drivers with the same brush, but at the same time point up the risks of relying on some-one else's diligence.
  • I know you're not and it's a fair comment Bill.Besides, if a cycling site isn't a bit biased towards cyclists then there's a problem somewhere :D

    The problem with the 'blind spot' defence is that while there IS a blind spot(and it can be big enough to hide an (original) Mini in depending on the cab) a good driver will make enough checks of the road while stationary to spot a cyclist as they come alongside before they reach the blind spot. I tend to keep one eye on my main left mirror while waiting in a queue for just that reason. Unfortunately in London it's sometimes not possible to do that as typically I've got cars trying to swarm round/under/into the truck like flies round shit, m/cycles and cycles trying to pass (and there's always a moped on L plates trying to go up the inside while everyone else goes outside...just as the lights change.

    I suppose a good analogy would be to imagine carrying an electrified steel box the size of a single bed round your local Tesco on a Saturday without anyone getting a shock.
  • "I suppose a good analogy would be to imagine carrying an electrified steel box the size of a single bed round your local Tesco on a Saturday without anyone getting a shock."

    :bigsmile:

    New variation on the spike in the middle of the steering wheel.
  • Those pics are great! It took me a few seconds to work them out at first. As Lurkette says, they're quite cubist and abstract. Would make great canvases.

    Nozzer, is there much use of cameras on HGVs, or is this just another place you'd have to look at as well as all the mirrors? I've followed some non articulated lorries that have had a camera fitted near the number plate. I would think that maybe these could help in reversing situations, though I suppose cabs and trailers aren't unique to each other for much of the time?

    I can't believe there are still places that have the cycle lanes that follow the outside of roundabouts, they're just sheer lunacy. I can remember when they were introduced down in Bournemouth a few years ago and everyone went apoplectic at how stupid and dangerous they were. The foreign students used to follow them round with the inevitable prangs. Didn't take long for the Council to remove them (surprisingly).

    Bring back the Tufty Club.
  • Yeah-Used to live in Bournemouth. Didn't they have one at the bottom of Wimborne Road in Winton?

    Cameras? Not really. Useful as an aid to how close you are to a loading bay when reversing but that's it.I've usually turned them off while driving as the pic vibrates badly enough to be useless. Tippers(including artic tipper trailers) have to have them fitted by law now so the driver can see no-one's standing where he's about to discharge the load.
  • "quite cubist and abstract. Would make great canvases."

    Mine and copyright me if anyone's thinking of selling them :D


    I wonder if anyone who didn't know what they were would recognise them?
  • loving the pics, round of applause for nozzer :clap:

    metro people: how much would some prints be? [pending copywrite permission of course]
  • Mirror, signal and manoeuvre. Stop, look and listen. What's the problem?
  • @sleepy
    Why would you want that printed?It looks like drapery for a fakengers cycling cap!
    Or a spokecard maybe?
  • @overdrive: sleepy's got fucking weard taste. haven't you seen his jersey with the lobster in a cage in front of a french-style farm house? it's foul, but bizarrely, he manages to pull it off. :swingin:
  • all sympathies to the poor man's family.That must be Queenstown circus,I worked on the roads around Chelsea and Battersea for years and always hated that roundabout.What a shame.
  • Oh for fucks sake not another one :sad:
  • Charlie Lloyd at LCC reckons there were 7 cyclists killed by collisions in London last year. That is down from the 2005/6 figure of 9, but level with the figures for the 3 years before.
  • Just to bring this one back to the top for a bit, I've recently been driving some of the trucks equipped with the 'new' blind spot mirrors and they are in many cases utterly useless. Some show the front of the cab, but STILL don't cover the red area to the nearside of the cab.Others are so badly made as to make them move after adjustment. (I know that they should be defected as soon as this is spotted, but if it happens when the truck is out, it still has to be driven back to be fixed.Sods law applies to both you guys and us...) Be warned!
  • Nozzer lorries scare the shit out of me, i give them as much room as possible when passing, and stay to the outside, have seen your pics here and on some other forums, its good to have them out there i still see people cut up the inside of lorries with their indicators on. Its good to see the other side of this debate, and to know that you guys are working to keep us safe as well. much respect for trying to keep us all safe out there. you offer solid advice to back up your dwarings as well, and I'm sure this has saved at least one life.
  • "Just to bring this one back to the top for a bit, I've recently been driving some of the trucks equipped with the 'new' blind spot mirrors and they are in many cases utterly useless. Some show the front of the cab, but STILL don't cover the red area to the nearside of the cab.Others are so badly made as to make them move after adjustment. (I know that they should be defected as soon as this is spotted, but if it happens when the truck is out, it still has to be driven back to be fixed.Sods law applies to both you guys and us...) Be warned!"

    That is depressing.

    Could we write a letter out-lining which ones are bad (or the worst) and co-sign it? What do you reckon?
  • Lorries are one of my main 'no-go' areas. I can be, like many of us, a cocky little punk on the streets sometimes, you have to do it to get the packages delivered and I like to think I've got enough sense and awareness to minimize the danger. But when I'm cycling in the domain of a lorry, I hold back, every time. They're just too deadly. This goes especially at junctions.
  • I learned my lesson... broke my back in 4 places, got dragged under a flat bed and rolled head over-heels for 20 metres... don't trust anything with wheels bigger than yours. Still 30 grand compensation does ease the pain!
  • Oh my god. How awful.
  • Yeah it was pretty rubbish, and I will be a miserable oldie, however for the time being the gleaming Ducati 999s will suffice... To be honest I think a lot of accidents could be prevented if people didn't have headphones in both ears as well.
  • smoke more or less drink lead
  • toes are kept on there are fucking idnuts around if in dunt fuckin run
  • dont want to be a wanker but please carfull
  • Although I don't necessarily like this video, there are some very good graphical representations of blind spots on hgv's. It's a new video by the Irish Road Safety Authority.
    http://vimeo.com/9551375
  • Or you could indicate 20 m before the junction rather than when you started to turn.
  • Nearly got taken out by a bin lorry today. Turning left onto fulham road heading up from Cheney Walk.

    He didn't indicate at all. By the time I'd stopped to make sure he didn't crush me, the oncoming traffic had started again and I nearly died that way.

    All on my way to an interview to become a messenger...
  • Don't f&ck with trucks or bendy busses. In my limited experience it's better to go slow and be considerate on the pavement or do the same on the other side of the road, than try to shoulder a bin truck or anything larger. If you can't see a face in the cab get somewhere safe, pull back, take a breather. Waiting for a minute or two is better than... you know what.

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