i'm sorry for your loss, jonathan.

i have to say that i am sickened when i read (i've never heard these kinds of comments in real life) people, especially other cyclists, condemning or blaming the cyclist in instances of road death or injury. aside from the utter insensitivity of it, there is a nauseating holier-than-thou stink about that kind of commentary.

that comment is disgusting.

when i read things like that, i'm thankful for my character that makes me so damn choosy about my friends.

Bollocks to this crap, William!
I'm getting thoroughly hacked off with almost getting knocked under a bus by twat cyclists!
I've been out there longer than anyone else on this forum and some of the fucking idiots on the road these days - not usually couriers - scare the shit out of me.
I'm not apportioning blame in the Emma Foa case, as the circumstances of her death don't seem wholly clear (Was the truck there first or did it pull alongside her?), and I'm not pontificating on the demise of the cyclist who died at the A23 / South Circ junction last week.
However, I do have to ask what the bloody hell anyone on a bike was doing goal-side of an HGV at a junction. Don't ever go there, unless you're sure how long's left on the light and certain it ain't gonna change. If in doubt, move outside the HGV. (It's a bloody HGV! You will beat it away from the lights if they change when you're upsides it.) If you're not confident enough to do that, then hang back.
People who aren't sufficiently confident to do either ("Oooh! I must make the sanctuary ofthe little advanced cyclsits' box!") should not be on the road.
Too many twats out there are a menace to themselves and others.
I want no part of any "cycling community" that defends all cyclists, regardless of their behaviour. Communities need satndards and they need to jettison members who fall short of those standards. Too many cyclists out there fall well short of acceptable skills in fitness levels and road / traffic awareness.
Fact: 60% of London drivers are crap and shouldn't have licences.
Fact: nobody's gonna do a damned thing about it.
Accept those facts and live with them, or igfnore them and die. Otherwise, get off my bloody streets.

Just back from the pub so probably not the best time to post, but here goes...

Count Basie, you're completely out of fucking order. How do you know you've 'been out there' longer than anyone else on this forum? Are you 106 years old?

'Goal-side of an HGV'? What the fuck does that mean?

Sadly not all cyclists can hit the road and build an immediate knowledge bank of experience of riding. It takes time to build experience and awareness. Not all cyclists can be as road savvy immediately (we all had to spend our time learning on the roads sometime, right? You don't just end up on the road a fully experienced demi-god).

And if you're an inexperienced cyclist, it would be understandable if you felt safe following the cycle lanes and stopping in the ASL boxes. It would seem to make sense, having a green lane taking you past all these vehicles to the front of the queue. You wouldn't think that a marked road system would lead you into such a potentially fatal situation.

Your assertion that inexperienced cyclists should not be on the road is elitist and arrogant at best. Not everyone will beat a lorry away from the lights. That's just complete bollocks.

Yes, there are a lot of 'twats out there', but that's the same in every walk of life. You say you 'want no part of any cycling community', but then want the right to 'jettison members who fall short'. What absolute fucking nonsense. Since when were 'fitness levels' an entry requirement to riding a bike on the road? 'Too many cyclists out there fall well short of acceptable skills in fitness levels and road / traffic awareness'. How the fuck do you build up awareness and experience? By getting out there and riding on the road, that's how.

'Fact: 60% of London drivers are crap and shouldn't have licences'. What an absolute load of bollocks. Is that figure scientifically researched? I don't think so.

People are dying on the roads and it's not because they've been 'jettisoned' from some elitist club, or don't have acceptable levels of 'fitness'. Sometimes it's just because they're following the rules of the road. Don't use the anonymity of a forum to say things that you wouldn't have the guts to say to the friends and family of the deceased who's been killed by a left turning lorry.

Accept your facts or die? I don't think so. They're not YOUR fucking streets. They're everybody's.

Count Basie, my name is Winston, otherwise known as Paul Churchill, as you appear to be so brave and confident I'm sure you will have no problem in revealing your true identity....

mister 5 o/clock is certainly my hero - !

i utterly agree that it takes time to build confidence and road awareness. i've been cycling round cities for 12 years and know that i am a much safer cyclist now than i was as a wee 20yr old lass.

but here's the rub. count basie says:

"I do have to ask what the bloody hell anyone on a bike was doing goal-side of an HGV at a junction. Don't ever go there, unless you're sure how long's left on the light and certain it ain't gonna change. If in doubt, move outside the HGV. (It's a bloody HGV! You will beat it away from the lights if they change when you're upsides it.) If you're not confident enough to do that, then hang back."

if we take aside the completely repulsive insensitivity and the inappropriateness of the vocalisation of his comments on this thread (and choice of wording), how many of us can disagree with the above comment? but then, as the hero said:

"And if you're an inexperienced cyclist, it would be understandable if you felt safe following the cycle lanes and stopping in the ASL boxes. It would seem to make sense, having a green lane taking you past all these vehicles to the front of the queue. You wouldn't think that a marked road system would lead you into such a potentially fatal situation."

both basie and the hero are correct.

the problem then is not the cyclist who thinks that cycling as they are told or encouraged to do by the authorities is the right thing to do, rather, the problem is that they are encouraged to do so in the first place. this is why apportioning blame to the victim is so ugly - they were only doing what they thought was right and/or safe and legal. conversely, the truck driver in the emma foa case was doing neither. (i can think of myriad other instances where blaming the victim causes my stomach to churn and blood to boil...)

in my opinion, there needs to be some sort of grassroots education for cyclists. (i know that some councils (e.g. haringey) offer "cycling with confidence" classes, but i've no idea what they are like.) i think that people need to understand that the acts which they are often lead to believe are safe, are actually precisely the ones that will endanger their life. (and, actually, vice versa.) most of us learn this the hard way, and with manifest sadness, some of us find it out too late. there are simple things that can be imparted to cyclists to help them achieve maximum levels of safety on the roads and, frankly, they often aren't the things that the government says. perhaps we could make a thread offering experienced advice and then you could make a permanent article from the collaborative input bill?

Firstly I'd like to extend my sympathies to Stigy and the families of both Emma and Kate. A friend of mine (an experienced cyclist) was killed a month ago cycling in New Mexico by a reckless driver. He was newly married and his wife was badly injured by the car. Truly heart breaking.
On the question of safety, a few years ago the authorities released a reversable pamphlet showing the point of view of an HGV on one side and the point of view of a cyclist on the other, this was handed out to both HGV drivers and cyclists alike. I found it helpful.
I do believe the cycle lanes can be misleading and do tend to rely on my own experience which is to stay the f**k away from lorries.
The roads are not what they were when I first wobbled out on them 18 or 19 years ago, they are much busier and there seems to be less room for error. There has been a huge drive to encourage cyclists onto the road without the same input into educating both the cyclists and four wheeled road users. Yes there are schemes, but they are not that well publicised.

@bill: yes, that's one of the types of comments i was thinking of. i have to admit that i'm far too impatient and anti-social to do any bike buddy type things. my solution is always to write. maybe i should produce a pamphlet! some of the things i think help make a cyclist safe aren't actually legal, so perhaps you wouldn't want to promote them here anyways.

@ibfm: i'd love to see those reversible pamphlets. do you still have a copy you could scan? i also completely agree with your last comments about the change in the roads in recent years. way more cyclists and way more cars/lorries.

@sleeps: well, duh! i know you rate them, but one opinion is not enough for me.

The one good thing about people writing shit like s/he was to blame for being there on the road for the lorry to run over is it does raise awareness + debate of these danger spots and hopefully we're all more careful, I remember an ancient poster highlighting the danger spot inside lorries on the wall of the club house at Herne Hill but I've never seen any other official looking pamphlet or anything about it.

A friend of mine had his foot crushed by a left turning lorry that arrived at the junction after him, 3 years later trying to get the settlement the trucks insurers are currently claiming 75/25 liability in their favour. So he's 75% responsible for the accident just for getting out of bed it seems.

That *****? That really sucks.

Agree that anything that raises consciousness of the dangers can be good. The trouble with the negative stuff is that it is part of wider problem in attitudes. Like calling a crash an 'accident' and using words like 'inadvertence' when referring to negligence that led directly to someone's death.

I guess what everyone from the cycling side that has been involved in various campaigns in the area of hgv/cyclist is more focus on driver training, some sense that the haulage industry accepts that they have a responsibility for doing everything they can to avoid killing people. Which they definitely aren't doing at the mo.

@bill: my bad. for some reason i thought you were anti running red lights. a cursory search of your blog shows my error.

Hey Count Basie who are you man?I am John at Metro do I know you?

Guys, I'll come right out and say it. I'm a truck driver. I'm also quite willing to help if I can from my keyboard. Would a few pics showing where the blind spots are on trucks and where the driver will be looking during certain manoevres be any help? Personally I'd far rather we could co-exist with a better degree of understanding of the hazards we both face than we all sat in our respective corners glaring at eachother and looking self-righteous as people die. It helps no-one.

As Lurkette says-the local councils have a lot to answer for in their placement of cycle lanes. In a lot of cases they've narrowed the road so much that a truck can't fit down it without driving in the cycle lane which is appalling. Personally I'd far rather the cycle was in the middle of the lane and taking a decent amount of space up-that way I wouldn't see morons in cars cutting so close to them that they are scared shitless. I wouldn't get the average joe moron in the Mercedes/Mondeo sitting on my tail lights flashing his lights and swearing then attempting potentially lethal overtakes as much either.

nozzer,i, for one, would love to see those pics. really and truly. if you would email them to me, i'd really appreciate it. arisingplantlike[at]googlemail.com. or post a link to them. something. that way i can email them to some friends.

thanks!

Nozzer, I would like to see them as well - can you send them to dmiller [at] sofi.org.uk .

Cheers,

David.

Nozzer, you can also either a. post the pics and words here or b. send them to me and I'll post them.

Yeah, that sounds cool. In general, I personally stay away from HGVs in London,only passing on the right, or giving them a lane's width distance if passing on the left, or staying behind the rear most axle.

Bit simpler than that actually-I've done them colour coded so the darker green the less likely you are to be seen and red zones are blind. They aren't the prettiest (done in Paint) but they do convey what they should fairly clearly and memorably. I'll mail them to you in a zip file for you to post-there's a text file in there too with relevant text. Hopefully it won't come across as a rant.

That BBC pic is wrong-and the report is quite frankly complete bollocks but then I've come to realise the BBC are utterly useless at getting anything more than enough info to confuse the issue and piss people off-and that's in most things they report on.Pretty much all HGVs have had wide angle nearside mirrors for many years. I've been driving HGV's for 10 years and have never driven one without the wide angle mirror.Bear in mind I was driving HGVs 10 years old when I started on them and the average lifespan of one is about 8 years in this country.

Can you post your own version here, please?

Actually I got the files here, so I'll do it!

Thanks for that, Noz, much appreciated.

Hmm. Stopping smoking? Oh.

Uhh, I haven't had a chance to open the file yet, but I'll let you know.