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London Bicycle Messenger Association: Looking to start up a courier business. I would love some advice!

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    Hi everyone, I am thinking about starting up a courier bike business. I am not from the UK, but regardless, I'm sure my city can support such an endeavour. Now, initially, it will be a two man show - equipped with bikes, bags, and 2 way cell phones, dispatched through direct call, page or, email accounts.

    The front-end of the website I will be building, but need a coder to collect and distribute payments and accounts. This is where I hesitate... I'm not really sure on a pricing scheme - or how about to go about inquiring (that's why I'm here :)).

    I would like someone to explain to me some of the intricacies of the business... Payment, zoning, guaranteed delivery times, dispatch, things like that. I mean, basically, I need to know even small details like what happens if you get a couple of cold-calls (out of the blue requests for delivery), and payment is in cash? What's the normal drill? Drop off, deduction from you pay, etc?

    I just don't know. I am hoping to find someone who does or at least can point me to another resource. :)

    Thanks all for your time, can't wait to be back on the road again!
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      CommentAuthorglib
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2010
     
    Good luck with your idea, I hope it works.

    As a second to your thread starter, how about some sort of organisation like a freindly lending bank.
    A co-operative bank I think maybe another term,

    Members pay a minimum fee each fornight
    This money is used for a micro loan service.
    Members can have access to these funds as small loans.
    A small joining fee for set up costs and to fund admin.
    I would be happy to stick a tenner a week into something like this, (as well as my own additional saving).

    What do I get in return?
    Well, I know that I might be able to financially benefit another similiar person.
    The interest from all the funds goes back to the organision.
    No interest to the banks.

    anyway, sorry to hijack your thread and if you get big...please dont adopt harsh Shitty Skint Courier company policies.

    and a Union as well.
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      CommentAuthorglib
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2010
     
    and yes I have noted the spelling mistakes Oberdribble.
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      CommentAuthoroverdrive
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2010
     
    Don't be a cnut.
  5.  
    "The front-end of the website I will be building, but need a coder to collect and distribute payments and accounts."

    You need a Real-Time system(costs money), or a plan. Porting online bookings to a simple text file is dead easy but only realistic if done once a day (in effect not Real-Time), alternatively you can find a way of porting online bookings to sms, (probably costs money, don't know now really). As I recall there are messengers working brilliantly in the US using only PDAs and special "widgets" (don't ask me I'm too old), availability of 3rd Generation Technology is very country specific.

    Whatever you do don't by the cheapest web-hosting package. These things are not built to be reliable 24/7.

    Collecting payments online is an expensive process to get started on. The simplest would be paypal, but they will hang on to your cash for 28 days if you are a new customer, so it's necessary to have REALLY good startup funding.

    Pricing. There is only one way (IMMVEHO) to start a courier company at the moment, and that is to headhunt a telephonist from an existing company and walk away with a couple of clients, pricing system and company gossip. Can't see it working out otherwise.
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      CommentAuthorglib
    • CommentTimeJun 8th 2010
     
    @overdrive
    oooh I say, bet i wont be seein you round the docks tonight hey big boy.
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      CommentAuthortf_rj
    • CommentTimeJun 8th 2010
     
    I started up myself last year and this is what I've learnt:

    __Things that you don't need:
    Online booking systems
    Real-time tracking
    Automatic invoicing
    GPS

    __Things that help:
    A website (anything modern-looking will do - some companies don't even have one at all, or it has basically no info on it)
    Business cards
    A uniform (embroidered polos are fine)
    Not looking like a complete bum

    __Things you definitely need:
    Clients



    Really the only concern is getting clients. Apart from that you can just print out some fairly good looking PU/DO forms or get some duplicate pads done up. Business cards, a uniform. £200 max.
    But how are you going to get clients, eh?

    Clients.
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      CommentAuthorev
    • CommentTimeJun 8th 2010
     
    what country/city are you in tf_rj ?
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      CommentAuthortf_rj
    • CommentTimeJun 8th 2010
     
    Oh I'm mostly just from the internet
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      CommentAuthorev
    • CommentTimeJun 9th 2010
     
    yea thought it sounded like bollocks :fierce:
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      CommentAuthortf_rj
    • CommentTimeJun 9th 2010
     
    pfft, it's all legit shit, brah.

    Clients are all that matters. It's way more fun sitting at home fiddling with the website and agonising over pricing structures, but none of it matters. Clients. Get clients.
    How do you get clients?
    I wish I knew
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      CommentAuthorpornomike
    • CommentTimeJun 9th 2010
     
    SA "brah".
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      CommentAuthorshatteredciv
    • CommentTimeJun 10th 2010 edited
     
    Hi guys, I would have replied sooner, but I was expecting an email alerting me to new additions to the posts. Never,ind. Okay, clients. I will be heading downtown tomorrow canvassing for work. I don't want to talk price now, just see if there's enough businesses out there (like lawyers, pharmacies, and maybe restaurants) to start it up. I'm only prospecting at the moment. The team I was thinking of organizing consists of only two people, myself and another experienced biker.

    I agree with a simple uniform, for sure. I really want to ride this green wave into some serious green... the time is rife right now to strike in my moderately sized city - with this obviously lacking environmental option for delivery.

    I was thinking of something using iDEN technology - something like MIKE for starters, it's fairly cheap and would cost around 100 a month for each phone with 500 minutes per month. This way realtime SMS protocol could be used.

    Again, I also agree with the headhunting, but there's really nothing around here to gauge prices.

    How much do you people think I should undercut the fuel delivery services by? 10, 20, 30%
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      CommentAuthortf_rj
    • CommentTimeJun 10th 2010
     
    Just remember that what people say when you speak to them is COMPLETELY different to what they actually think. I went round to about 100 businesses earlier in the year, pitched our service, and about 70 were really enthusiastic about it. 20 didn't care and 10 thought I was insane.
    How many actually use us now? 2, two.

    Everyone acts like they like your idea when you're there in front of them, but it means nothing really. This might be especially pronounced if you're going to them in a pre-startup state, basically saying "*would* you use us *if* we offered this service?"
    People will say "oo yes that would be great, we'd try you out for sure" because there's no committment from them and it doesn't feel real.

    You have to do it, though, I guess. Just try to find a way to make them feel like it was THEIR idea to use you, that they are BUYING, and not being sold to.
    Once you have your image sorted out (logo, uniform, website, business cards, etc) then try to get into the local press.
    Offer your services for free to any local cycling groups, get involved with them, be at bikey/environmental/anything events.

    Consider trying to tap some unconventional sources of work as well - or actually this is pretty common these days - like doing home deliveries of food from hippy shops and things like that.

    As for undercutting your competitors - well, it depends how much they charge at the moment. I live in England and here quite a few companies call a taxi to use as a courier. That costs them about £5 at the very most, and often much less. One taxi firm here does same-day courier drops (i.e. whenever they get around to it) for a straight £1/mile. So £2 would cover most of the city, haha.
    So taxi rates were my minimum. Maximum prices around depending on how much they didn't want the work. There's a company who does stuff for about £5 and then some who do it for £15-£50

    Our prices are basically between £5 and £10.
    I've not had any explicit feedback from clients about how they feel about our prices, so I don't really know what they think.
  15.  
    Thanks tf_rj. 5-10 per? Wow. That's high. Even converting that into Canadian dollars - roughly around 10-20 dollars. Hmm, I was seriously thinking of MUCH, much lower... like 3-5 pounds (depending on size).

    I was thinking of contracting out the work, and the couriers would be paid commission. I would love to get out on the streets, but now that may not be possible. Instead, I can serve as web/IT/admin/dispatcher.

    I have a question. How much does a courier make per delivery? If you're charging 5-10 pounds per... how much of that is yours, and how much of it is the couriers? How do YOU pay your staff? Thanks... I need someone with experience like yours.

    I figure with the low overhead, even 50 deliveries a day (not clients - deliveries), at 3 pounds, would be more than enough to cover overhead and make profit. 50 parcels though for a start-up? Hmm, that would take a lot of work and adverts.
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      CommentAuthortf_rj
    • CommentTimeJun 12th 2010
     
    Yea I feel embarassed to ask for more than about £5, but I'm just a really cheap kind of person. £5 is a lot to me but might seem like nothing to a client. In arriving at these prices I looked at how much everyone else was charging, in England and around the world, and went somewhere in the middle. You will find prices much higher than mine around, certainly.
    My pricing is a point of continual uncertainty for me. I am not comfortable taking money from people at all, even for work I've done. I've several times turned down payment for hours' or a day's work (in other, casual, jobs) because I didn't feel like I had "worked" very much.
    However, since I am barely scraping a living out of this as it is, I suppose I can't really put my prices down yet. I don't know of anyone who doesn't use us because we're "too expensive", but then who knows what people's reasons are.

    Phone/email local couriers and ask them for quotes on imaginary jobs, and that will tell you what your market is used to or has access to.

    I assume you live in Canadia, so you could also put some fake quote requests to these guys:
    http://www.turnaroundcouriers.com/services-rates/

    And any other Canadian companies you know about.


    Don't worry about employing other couriers yet - just get a mobile phone and do it all yourself. Admin and IT can be done in the evenings (it doesn't take long) and then you can be out on the streets yourself. It's the best way at first, I reckon, because firstly you avoid the initial expense of hiring either an office worker or a courier (for whichever side you don't do) and having to pay them maybe for months while no work is coming in, and secondly it means you have complete control over everything and can speak to clients or potential clients exactly as you want them spoken to.

    I still do almost all of the delivery work myself, so I guess I get 100%. Or in reality I just take what I need, which isn't much, from the company account.
    I've previously paid people 60% for a 5 minute job, and I'd like to be able to pay 70 or 80% in future, if business picks up and I do actually get other riders out there. I'd have to think about how much the business costs to run, how much I need as my earnings, and then see how much I could give to the couriers.

    Yea "even 50 deliveries a day", haha. That's a lot of work, though, and you might literally NEVER reach that point.
  17.  
    tf_rj is spot on

    I have been running my business for 2 and a half years now and I can relate to a lot that he is saying.

    For the first year of my business I would be lucky if i earned £50 a week. You have to ask yourself can i survive on that for 12 - 18 months. Even then it will be a slow build, especially if you live in a city which doesn't have a tradition of bicycle couriers. My weekly wage even now is too laughable to talk about. You have to be in it for the love.

    Find a big, reliable client who will put a regular bit of work your way. I have Manchester City Council and the BBC as my keystones, I know i'll get work from them and I know roughly how much it will be a month.
    Once you have identified your big client, then it's time to beg. Tell them who you are and your plans, make sure anyone who you talk to is left with the impression that you are a go getter, a serious businessperson, rather than a muppet on a bicycle. Find out who you will be dealing with (eg post room boss), find out where they drink and shower them with pints while impressing them with your greatness. They will come round to your way of thinking.

    Just get a mobile phone. Taking jobs by email or xml or sms or whatever is a pain in the arse while riding. You are constantly stopping and starting and will get hacked off very quickly. Some customers have pedantic job numbering systems that assume that everyone uses a pda, but I get my contact to give me those numbers over the phone.

    Spread out. Once you have your big reliable client(s) then go and get some more. It helps if your Big reliable client sends you to other businesses. Its better to recieve a flyer from someone who is a doing a job rather than someone who is just looking for one. When new clients phone you it will often be a last minute rush 'no one else can help us' moment. Sprint your arse off to get those jobs done super quick. Customers will remember that you helped them and that you were damn fast and will be more likely to phone you in future.

    Be friendly with other couriers whether they are bike couriers or not. they will get you work and pick you up if you get knocked off.

    Don't undercut other bike couriers. undercut the dhls, city sprints etc all day long, but try and pitch your prices about the same as your colleagues. You will benefit more and if you need to employ people you will know where to go for reliable staff

    Don't be trendy. A fixed wheel is fine if you work in a flat city where you won't ever be getting up to top speed. If not, or if you are planning on working over a larger area get gears. I work 10 hours a day and during the first 18 months I used a fixed wheel and It was a killer. customers do not appreciate sweaty couriers collapsing on their plush carpets.

    I have more secrets but i'm not telling.
    Bear in mind that I work in manchester which is a modest sized city. Getting on in a city the size of London would be a lot harder.
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      CommentAuthoroverdrive
    • CommentTimeJun 12th 2010
     
    Couriers don't ride fixed wheel to be trendy.That's what fakengers are for.Been using fixed in the big smoke for eleven years and my knees have not fallen off yet.I work for a company that has clients all over the city and I mean all over.We go out to the suburbs on a regular basis and they do not mind if I turn up sweating.I like sweating,it keeps me skinny.Manchester is small,I rode across it in 15 mins,it is also flat so riding FW there is almost compulsory.
    Come on Switzerland!
  19.  
    yeah, some do and some don't, but the amount of people who phone up looking for a job and say 'I've got a fixie' as if it will help leads me to the belief that people expect couriers to ride fixed. Also, Manchester city centre is flat, but it is also full of couriers, so I branch out and cover anywhere within the M60. Blakely, Prestwich, Swinton etc are all hilly.

    Manchester is not london. In london bicycle couriers are well established but most people in manchester don't even know they exist. That means you are not only promoting your business but also your sector in the market. that means when you meet a client you need to be presentable and coherent. Its also why I stay away from pavements. pulling skids in front of potential clients is not good.

    15 mins across manchester city centre. Takes me 5. that'll be the gears then...
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      CommentAuthoroverdrive
    • CommentTimeJun 12th 2010
     
    Fair enough,man.Respect to you for going it alone,I've thought about it but I wouldn't have the balls to take it on plus I get paid quite well enough,when it's busy,to not need to leave where I am.There are plenty of couriers down here who ride geared,in fact gears seem to be coming back again but it aint my bag.Don't see the advantage in the city.I like going uphill on a FW,sometimes it's easier than going down.F*ck it I'm going for a ride.
    Nice chatting.
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      CommentAuthoroverdrive
    • CommentTimeJun 12th 2010
     
    Or,rather,gonna stay in and watch the Argies against Nigeria with a few red stripe.Yeeaargh!Come on Nigeria!
  22.  
    yeah man, stick with the money. If I was in London there would be no way I could do it on my own, not without a few hundred grands worth of advertising.

    I love riding fixed. I would prefer to ride fixed but slogging down an A road on 81 inches is a lot slower than rolling along on 120. If i was only in the city centre I would ride fixed and I encourage anyone who rides a bike to try fixed cos it's ace fun. Have been thinking of putting 53x13 on the fixed to cope with those A roads, but just the thought makes me cry...
  23.  
    Newcastle Brown £1.09 at netto. hate football, love the deals.
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      CommentAuthoroverdrive
    • CommentTimeJun 12th 2010
     
    There's one guy I know who goes it alone down here.He does quite well I think and whenever I see him he's riding with purpose but I 'spose you'd have to.He used to do what's called fast fridays for Rapha where they deliver your posh cycing gear to your door.Dunno if he still does it.Do you know John Chan?How is he getting on?Heard he had a smash.
  25.  
    John Chan is someone who I only know to say hello to. As far as I know his business is going well. I have a lot of respect for him as I have for anyone who runs their own business. i try and stay away from the whole fixed/courier scene in Manchester. I have a fear of appearing trendy and i drink in didsbury or salford anyway. That said, there are some good lads out there. Clodge and Adam Cotty spring to mind. there are some cnuts, such as the kid who said to me when I first started up 'You're that guy who's taking everyones business. You'd best be careful cos you don't know who you are pissing off.' That sort of childish shit just hurts everyone.

    How long has the guy in london been going? Did he work at a courier firm before. As I said, you would need massive advertising to start from scratch in london, but if you have enough clients who you are friendly with you may be able to nick them and form the base of your own business...
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      CommentAuthoroverdrive
    • CommentTimeJun 12th 2010
     
    I'm pretty sure he used to call his "company" Bicaboy.He had a webpage that I remember seeing,I just searched but got no joy.Dunno if he worked for a company down here but I'm sure some know-it-all will post on here and correct,belittle and put me in my place sometime soon(hello Bill).

    As for getting clients I've always got on well with ours.I think if I really wanted to I could nick a few of 'em but I've worked with the same riders now for a long time and I'd look a right cnut if I did that.But all's fair in love and war and
    If I knew I could really make a go of it I'd crawl over my dead nanna to get a decent wage.
  27.  
    yeah, alls fair. It's a business. I get hacked off reading about people moaning about their wages and conditions. If you don't like it do something about it. running a business is not rocket science. Find customers, do work, get paid. End of. the problem is one of image. I am under no illusions about what I do. I ride a bike and deliver shit. I ride in the snow and the wind and the rain. this entitles me to no special treatment and it does not make me cool. It's a job like any other. I respect anyone who looks at it like a business and no one who looks at as a 'lifestyle choice'

    All the best Overdrive, seriously. Have a good think about whether its right for you and whether you can make a go of it. I think you'll get respect from some riders and a bit of grief from the trendsters. it all depends on how they view the business and whether their balls have dropped.

    Heard of the Bicaboy site. hope he is doing well.
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      CommentAuthoroverdrive
    • CommentTimeJun 12th 2010
     
    Sweet,keep those wheels turning no matter what!
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      CommentAuthortf_rj
    • CommentTimeJun 12th 2010
     
    hey johnsatisfaction - can I email you about working for the BBC? Or we can talk on here if you like.
  30.  
    the BBC is a special case. apparently city sprint have the contract for the BBC nationwide, but my contact got so hacked off with them that they use me instead. City Sprint were not happy with this and offered to buy my business but that fell through when i insisted that i keep my own clients and do my own work as well as theirs. They made some bullshit up about my criminal record as an excuse.

    My contact is in the news room at Northwest Tonight. I would ring up your local BBC office, ask to be put through to the camera desk and then get an email address of someone to whom you can send business information. Don't let them fob you off by giving you the address of purchasing. you want a human being with whom you can interact.

    Now then... Working for TV is not easy. nothing ever goes to plan and you will end up standing around a lot. I had to pick up a tape at granada and was kept waiting for 45 minutes. If you go out to get a tape from a reporter they can take even longer. but you do get to go to interesting places and meet interesting people.

    Which city are you in? I will ask my contact to get the number for her counterpart there and whisper it to you.
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      CommentAuthorSideshow
    • CommentTimeJun 12th 2010
     
    Bycaboy is Seb, and one or two others on rotation. Still going strong last I heard, doing a big circuit too, with lots of regular clients. Seb seems proud of his gig and knows his shit, from what I got from him, probably a good guy to have a chat with if you're thinking along the same lines.

    (Hello John :peace:)
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      CommentAuthortf_rj
    • CommentTimeJun 12th 2010
     
    Thanks a lot - yea getting to speak to any decision maker in a big business is a terrible effort. All my clients so far are very small, I've met the boss of all of them and normally see him/her when I go in to pick stuff up. Any larger companies just tell you to fuck off, basically. The council here is similar - I've got several "friends" in the council, actually, and I did get to speak with someone from the mail room, but they're happy with their current arrangements.

    Actually, my marketting and sales abilities are awful, I'm not really able to sleaze up to people and tell them what they need to hear. I'm too direct, and no one likes to be sold to. I think you have to make them feel like they're buying from you, instead. Then it's their own fantastic idea to use someone cheaper, faster, greener and more handsome, and they can feel proud of how smart they are.
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      CommentAuthortf_rj
    • CommentTimeJun 12th 2010
     
    hmm, I can't whisper to you:

    "Some problems were encountered
    There was a problem authenticating your post information."

    if you could whisper me your email address that would be great

    Thanks
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      CommentAuthortf_rj
    • CommentTimeJun 12th 2010
     
    by the way, here is the byca boy website if anyone is interested:

    http://www.bycaboy.com/

    Looks like he's got a good thing going on
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      CommentAuthoroverdrive
    • CommentTimeJun 12th 2010
     
    Hey Alex,how the f*ck are you mate?Yeah it's Seb but didn't wanna name the guy as he doesn't post on here.That's his site
    (good work tf_rj)and good to hear he's still going strong.Maybe I'll get him to race next friday,Alex you'd love this one shame you wont be here for it.All the best on your adventure,see you soon blud!:heart:
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      CommentAuthorSideshow
    • CommentTimeJun 13th 2010
     
    Interesting combination of having the time of my life and seriously, seriously missing my bike and couriering:brokenheart:. Be back on the road in July, miss you London! :flowers:
  37.  
    tf_rj: it's manchestermessengerco@yahoo.co.uk I'm between web hosts at the moment

    Don't stop when they tell you no. If you go in and pitch to them and they knock you back, go back a few months later and try again. A lot can happen in that time. your tenacity will probably impress a potential customer. Ask your 'friends' for help, not work or money. People respond better to that word. If you have a potential customer you are trying to crack but are getting nowhere use the phrase 'What can I to do to get your business?' This puts them in a position of power and everyone loves that. They will respond to your flexibility

    Gotta Go....
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      CommentAuthorbycaboy
    • CommentTimeJul 29th 2010
     
    I started up by my own in 2007, www.bycaboy.com, still going strong.
    Get incontact if you have any questions:)
  39.  
    I have been banned
    You can go to http://www.courierpros.com/buy-now/ for more information on courier services.
    • CommentAuthorCabSave
    • CommentTimeJan 12th 2011
     
    I have been banned
    That’s a good idea to earning money and it is perfectly legal work. I think first of all you must be take a 1 year tanning from a well organized courier company.

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